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	<title>Comments on: Semi-structured meta-data has a posse: A response to Gene Smith</title>
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	<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/</link>
	<description>a blog on tagging</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:32:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tagging and folksonomies replacing traditional methods &#124; Blog Smith</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-56857</link>
		<dc:creator>Tagging and folksonomies replacing traditional methods &#124; Blog Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-56857</guid>
		<description>[...]  Semi-structured meta-data has a posse. http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/   This entry was posted in learning activities, week 4 and tagged folksonomy, tags, traditional classification schemes. Bookmark the permalink.    &#8592; A new domain [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Semi-structured meta-data has a posse. <a href="http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/" rel="nofollow">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/</a>   This entry was posted in learning activities, week 4 and tagged folksonomy, tags, traditional classification schemes. Bookmark the permalink.    &larr; A new domain [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: CDLR</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-539</link>
		<dc:creator>CDLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-539</guid>
		<description>There is an interesting investigative paper in D-Lib magazine regarding tagging (http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january06/guy/01guy.html) which attempts to square Clay Shirky&#039;s claims with a small empirical study. Conclusions are as you might expect.  The conclusions also hint at some of the analyses provided at http://cdlr.strath.ac.uk/www2006.html.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an interesting investigative paper in D-Lib magazine regarding tagging (<a href="http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january06/guy/01guy.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january06/guy/01guy.html</a>) which attempts to square Clay Shirky&#8217;s claims with a small empirical study. Conclusions are as you might expect.  The conclusions also hint at some of the analyses provided at <a href="http://cdlr.strath.ac.uk/www2006.html." rel="nofollow">http://cdlr.strath.ac.uk/www2006.html.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Running as Root  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Tagging Me Softly</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-494</link>
		<dc:creator>Running as Root  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Tagging Me Softly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2006 21:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-494</guid>
		<description>[...]  saw me bookmarking a bunch of tag related content.  It started with a Clay Shirky&#8217;s response to Gene Smith&#8217;s critique of Shirky&amp; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  saw me bookmarking a bunch of tag related content.  It started with a Clay Shirky&#8217;s response to Gene Smith&#8217;s critique of Shirky&amp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: supertaggers</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-456</link>
		<dc:creator>supertaggers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-456</guid>
		<description>Clay Shirky makes false dichotomies

There seems to be a misunderstanding in the tagging world that taxonomies are rigid hierarchies defined from authorities on high. Good taxonomies are multifaceted hierarchies which grow among users as trees of knowledge.

If there is such a thing as good tagging verses poor tagging, I suggest that good tagging will take on board some of the lessons of multifaceted classification.

Tagging and classification are the same thing. Tags in blogs are no different from personal classifications. The use of multiple descriptors are attempts by individuals to create multi-faceted taxonomies. 

As our quick analysis of Technorati&#039;s top tags already indicates (www.supertaggers.co.uk) even the simplest multifaceted taxonomy adds value and an element of definition to an otherwise cloudy view. 

The goal of supertaggers is to encourage the best tagging, as well as providing added value of tagging super structures.

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay Shirky makes false dichotomies</p>
<p>There seems to be a misunderstanding in the tagging world that taxonomies are rigid hierarchies defined from authorities on high. Good taxonomies are multifaceted hierarchies which grow among users as trees of knowledge.</p>
<p>If there is such a thing as good tagging verses poor tagging, I suggest that good tagging will take on board some of the lessons of multifaceted classification.</p>
<p>Tagging and classification are the same thing. Tags in blogs are no different from personal classifications. The use of multiple descriptors are attempts by individuals to create multi-faceted taxonomies. </p>
<p>As our quick analysis of Technorati&#8217;s top tags already indicates (www.supertaggers.co.uk) even the simplest multifaceted taxonomy adds value and an element of definition to an otherwise cloudy view. </p>
<p>The goal of supertaggers is to encourage the best tagging, as well as providing added value of tagging super structures.</p>
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		<title>By: You&#8217;re It!  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Year in Tags</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-440</link>
		<dc:creator>You&#8217;re It!  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; The Year in Tags</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Dec 2005 06:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-440</guid>
		<description>[...]  for me, but it was received like a papal bull and produced some interesting critiques and counter-critiques.  (To give credit where it&amp;#8217 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  for me, but it was received like a papal bull and produced some interesting critiques and counter-critiques.  (To give credit where it&amp;#8217 [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: open.info.nl  &#187; Archief   &#187; Facets en tags – best of both worlds</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-361</link>
		<dc:creator>open.info.nl  &#187; Archief   &#187; Facets en tags – best of both worlds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2005 08:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-361</guid>
		<description>[...] rmatie structureren en klassieke wijze, hier voor het gemak taxonomieën genoemd. 	Volgens Clay Shirky zullen taxonomieën voor een groot ged [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] rmatie structureren en klassieke wijze, hier voor het gemak taxonomieën genoemd. 	Volgens Clay Shirky zullen taxonomieën voor een groot ged [...]</p>
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		<title>By: CDLR</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-262</link>
		<dc:creator>CDLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-262</guid>
		<description>Clay Shirky’s ‘rebuttal’ of Gene Smith failed to counter several of his original arguments and many of us are still no further forward to learning how resource discovery in a globally distributed information environment is to be enhanced by folksonomies or tagging.  Even some of the most ardent classification proponents wouldn&#039;t deny that tagging can potentially play a huge role in the task of Personal Information Management (PIM) or for resource discovery within small communities of practice, but it remains totally unclear how such an approach can enhance resource discovery (esp. by subject) for the greater good.  

More generally, I find the number of entirely spurious and misinformed statements within the &#039;tagging literature&#039; to be deeply concerning. For example: 

&quot;But tagging is already a better fit for discovering and reflecting both personal and group mental models; does a better job of handling ambiguous or dynamic cases; provides judgment-related context (’funny’, ‘cool’); allows better mapping to communities of the like-minded; and is, on top of all of that, cheap cheap cheap&quot;.

How, for example, can &quot;judgment related context&quot; possibly enhance resource discovery for users in a global information environment?!?!  Mr Shirky states that tagging is &quot;cheap, cheap, cheap&quot;???  Well, I guess it depends on your definition of ‘cheap’ and precisely how frugal we want to be in our future information society.  The implication of such frugality is, for many, quite obvious.   Indeed, every statement in the above excerpt is exceedingly debatable but is nevertheless taken as absolute fact.  Where is the evidence?  Where?  Even a session of rigorous desk-based research would not lead one to make such spurious claims.  The evidence simply does not exist. 

The bottom line is that folksonomies and tagging have yet to be exposed to any rigorous scientific enquiry and no amount of blogging can possibly substitute for this.  It is something that my colleague and I wish to remedy (particularly since it is an extremely interesting area of research!).  However, I’m confident that other work will gradually filter through the international information and computing science communities in due course and we will all be the better for it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clay Shirky’s ‘rebuttal’ of Gene Smith failed to counter several of his original arguments and many of us are still no further forward to learning how resource discovery in a globally distributed information environment is to be enhanced by folksonomies or tagging.  Even some of the most ardent classification proponents wouldn&#8217;t deny that tagging can potentially play a huge role in the task of Personal Information Management (PIM) or for resource discovery within small communities of practice, but it remains totally unclear how such an approach can enhance resource discovery (esp. by subject) for the greater good.  </p>
<p>More generally, I find the number of entirely spurious and misinformed statements within the &#8216;tagging literature&#8217; to be deeply concerning. For example: </p>
<p>&#8220;But tagging is already a better fit for discovering and reflecting both personal and group mental models; does a better job of handling ambiguous or dynamic cases; provides judgment-related context (’funny’, ‘cool’); allows better mapping to communities of the like-minded; and is, on top of all of that, cheap cheap cheap&#8221;.</p>
<p>How, for example, can &#8220;judgment related context&#8221; possibly enhance resource discovery for users in a global information environment?!?!  Mr Shirky states that tagging is &#8220;cheap, cheap, cheap&#8221;???  Well, I guess it depends on your definition of ‘cheap’ and precisely how frugal we want to be in our future information society.  The implication of such frugality is, for many, quite obvious.   Indeed, every statement in the above excerpt is exceedingly debatable but is nevertheless taken as absolute fact.  Where is the evidence?  Where?  Even a session of rigorous desk-based research would not lead one to make such spurious claims.  The evidence simply does not exist. </p>
<p>The bottom line is that folksonomies and tagging have yet to be exposed to any rigorous scientific enquiry and no amount of blogging can possibly substitute for this.  It is something that my colleague and I wish to remedy (particularly since it is an extremely interesting area of research!).  However, I’m confident that other work will gradually filter through the international information and computing science communities in due course and we will all be the better for it.</p>
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		<title>By: open.info.nl  &#187; Archief   &#187; Tagging discussie</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-251</link>
		<dc:creator>open.info.nl  &#187; Archief   &#187; Tagging discussie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-251</guid>
		<description>[...] langs plaatste hij een lang weerwoord op You’re It! – hét blog o [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] langs plaatste hij een lang weerwoord op You’re It! – hét blog o [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Silkworm Blog</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Silkworm Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 01:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-240</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Why Tagging Is Expensive&lt;/strong&gt;

On the surface tagging seems to offer a new paradigm of organising information, one that reduces the cost of entry and so enables a long tail of participation to emerge. I&#039;ve come to realise that the cost isn&#039;t removed, instead...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Why Tagging Is Expensive</strong></p>
<p>On the surface tagging seems to offer a new paradigm of organising information, one that reduces the cost of entry and so enables a long tail of participation to emerge. I&#8217;ve come to realise that the cost isn&#8217;t removed, instead&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: onpause</title>
		<link>http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/comment-page-1/#comment-222</link>
		<dc:creator>onpause</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Aug 2005 09:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tagsonomy.com/index.php/semi-structured-meta-data-has-a-posse-a-response-to-gene-smith/#comment-222</guid>
		<description>particulary thought-provoking for me is this notion: &quot;...ways of turning a collection of tags into site navigation, a sort of permanent card-sorting game that continually optimizes site navigation...&quot; -- very much on my mind these days.

one question, clay, to which i think an answer will help some of us more fully understand your position:

on a site like http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/, the creator of the content has &quot;categorized&quot; his blog entries in order to create a navigation method for accessing the archived content. 

do you consider this practice to be a form of &quot;self-tagging&quot; or a &quot;classification system&quot; or neither? 

when you propose &quot;most places that offer digital categorization are only in the expensive and frustrating business of classification because they wrongly believe that is the best way to serve their users. That will change...&quot;, would this include the &quot;self-classification&quot; (or whatever it is) of, say, http://www.plasticbag.org?

i&#039;m a die-hard proponent of the &quot;metadata IS navigation/navigation IS metadata&quot; view, and i very much buy the idea that user-generated metadata can drive navigation that is highly responsive to the mental models of users, but i wonder about publishing content without ANY initial navigational structure at all, in the hopes that the &quot;masses&quot; will eventually accidentally run across it and &quot;tag&quot; it; which, after a critical mass is reached, would finally provide navigational access to that content. for 

so, are you really proposing that site owners/content creators will eventually stop self-classifying their stuff? won&#039;t most (perhaps even the amazons of the world) still want to &quot;seed&quot; their information space with a &quot;default&quot; navigational view?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>particulary thought-provoking for me is this notion: &#8220;&#8230;ways of turning a collection of tags into site navigation, a sort of permanent card-sorting game that continually optimizes site navigation&#8230;&#8221; &#8212; very much on my mind these days.</p>
<p>one question, clay, to which i think an answer will help some of us more fully understand your position:</p>
<p>on a site like <a href="http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/" rel="nofollow">http://www.plasticbag.org/archives/</a>, the creator of the content has &#8220;categorized&#8221; his blog entries in order to create a navigation method for accessing the archived content. </p>
<p>do you consider this practice to be a form of &#8220;self-tagging&#8221; or a &#8220;classification system&#8221; or neither? </p>
<p>when you propose &#8220;most places that offer digital categorization are only in the expensive and frustrating business of classification because they wrongly believe that is the best way to serve their users. That will change&#8230;&#8221;, would this include the &#8220;self-classification&#8221; (or whatever it is) of, say, <a href="http://www.plasticbag.org?" rel="nofollow">http://www.plasticbag.org?</a></p>
<p>i&#8217;m a die-hard proponent of the &#8220;metadata IS navigation/navigation IS metadata&#8221; view, and i very much buy the idea that user-generated metadata can drive navigation that is highly responsive to the mental models of users, but i wonder about publishing content without ANY initial navigational structure at all, in the hopes that the &#8220;masses&#8221; will eventually accidentally run across it and &#8220;tag&#8221; it; which, after a critical mass is reached, would finally provide navigational access to that content. for </p>
<p>so, are you really proposing that site owners/content creators will eventually stop self-classifying their stuff? won&#8217;t most (perhaps even the amazons of the world) still want to &#8220;seed&#8221; their information space with a &#8220;default&#8221; navigational view?</p>
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